Doug Farrar: Russell Wilson No Better Than .500 QB On Indy & What This Means For RGIII

redskinsfan · Mar 26, 2015

TCB said:
Andrew Luck is on his way to being a hall of fame qb. I doubt many are questioning him being the first player taken here. I even sprinkled in a few more teams that might have not drafted Wilson in the first round. That is about it. The rest of the gm's would sell their wives and children to find the next Russell Wilson.

We will have to disagree here. Farrar is a respected guy on these issues and if you don't buy his opinion look at those stats. Unless you've got a supporting cast like Seattle's, he'd have problems holding onto a starting job.

redskinsfan · Mar 26, 2015

ckhokie said:
Read the OP and saw a dislike. Figured it was a 'Hawks fan or Smart.

Hoop has become awfully predictable...

Maybe a dumb question but why is his moniker 'asshat'?

Uhsplit · Mar 26, 2015

redskinsfan said:
We will have to disagree here. Farrar is a respected guy on these issues and if you don't buy his opinion look at those stats. Unless you've got a supporting cast like Seattle's, he'd have problems holding onto a starting job.

I am impressed at how much you know about Russell Wilson. With that in mind I scratch my head at your final opinion of his football skills.

Regarding Farrar, he compares Russell to Kaep, Luck, Smith,and RG3. RW lead his teams to division round and NFCCG's victories the last 2 years going 4-0 in those games. RW has lead his team to back to back SB's, going 1 and 1. He has a much stronger resume`.

I know, it helps a lot to have Lynch and this defense, but Russell has no names at WR and TE and the OL can't pass block very well. So in that regard he has no passing support which Farrar fails to mention.

This Seahawk fan and 27 year STH hopes we can sign him to a 6/$90 guaranteed contract.

Uhsplit · Mar 26, 2015

ckhokie said:
Read the OP and saw a dislike. Figured it was a 'Hawks fan or Smart.

Hoop has become awfully predictable...

As is your post.

martinez · Mar 26, 2015

wilson's best asset by far is his pocket awareness and ability to improvise when plays go to shit. also wilson can read a defense. he has it great in seattle because he isnt asked to do too much. the point of this thread is we should do the same with rg3, not ask him to do too much. jay needs to find a balance between his offense and rg3 strengths. rg3 needs to do what hes told, not cry, and not try to do too much.
-next seasons success and the futures of jay and rg3 depend on the bold parts. if they fail, well, then they can get fired together and might as well duke it out in the parking lot.

redskinsfan · Mar 26, 2015

Uhsplit said:
I am impressed at how much you know about Russell Wilson. With that in mind I scratch my head at your final opinion of his football skills.

Regarding Farrar, he compares Russell to Kaep, Luck, Smith,and RG3. RW lead his teams to division round and NFCCG's victories the last 2 years going 4-0 in those games. RW has lead his team to back to back SB's, going 1 and 1. He has a much stronger resume`.

I know, it helps a lot to have Lynch and this defense, but Russell has no names at WR and TE and the OL can't pass block very well. So in that regard he has no passing support which Farrar fails to mention.

This Seahawk fan and 27 year STH hopes we can sign him to a 6/$90 guaranteed contract.

Like I said before, I'm a big Wilson fan. Whatever deficiencies you may point out in terms of certain parts of his supporting cast, you can't take issue with the fact that he's got the best defense around and one of the best running games as well. In making my point about Wilson, make sure you realize it's a nuanced one: I'm making the difference between Wilson the football player as opposed to the passing QB. And my point is that although he's a good football player, he's an average passing QB. As I've noted previously, a good comparison to him would be Alex Smith. While Wilson has gone to two Super Bowls in consecutive years, I'd seriously challenge any argument that he was the primary reason for those back-to-back appearances. Too much of his achievements are attributable to his ability to excel in the overall system Seattle provides for him. As I stated earlier, he was very fortunate to survive a disastrous showing in this year's championship game.

Here's a good way of looking at things: if Wilson was on the Colts, what would his stat line and record be? Would he take the Colts to the playoffs? Also ask yourself why Luck thrust himself into the passing elite this year with far less to support him than Wilson? If you honestly think about it, you'll realize it's largely because of what Seattle has provided for Wilson. To be sure, he's got no real receiving talent; but he's got so much more to lean on. And that's what's buoyed his success. Take that away and you'll see what's happening to Kap in SF.

redskinsfan · Mar 26, 2015

martinez said:
wilson's best asset by far is his pocket awareness and ability to improvise when plays go to shit. also wilson can read a defense. he has it great in seattle because he isnt asked to do too much. the point of this thread is we should do the same with rg3, not ask him to do too much. jay needs to find a balance between his offense and rg3 strengths. rg3 needs to do what hes told, not cry, and not try to do too much.
-next seasons success and the futures of jay and rg3 depend on the bold parts. if they fail, well, then they can get fired together and might as well duke it out in the parking lot.

Bingo.

Uhsplit · Mar 27, 2015

redskinsfan said:
Wilson would be top 10 -- in the NFC. Let me ask you this: would you take Wilson over Eli Manning, Tony Romo or Sam Bradford (if he's not injured)? No way. How about Cam Newton, Drew Brees, or Matt Ryan? No there too. Rodgers, Cutler or Stafford? Same answer. To be sure, some of those QBs have their issues, e.g., Cutler. But if you pair those guys with a system like Seattle's, would they do better than Wilson. You bet. Most of them couldn't run like Wilson does. Others have off-field issues that Wilson doesn't have (e.g., Wilson's high character and work ethic eclipses the serious issues Cutler has). But each have basic drop back, passing skill sets that would make them better passing QBs than would Wilson.

Wow, just wow. That is one incredible reach. Stafford has the #2 D last year, and has greater weapons all around except at RB and still can't win jack.
Only Brees and Rodgers on that list have won anything.
You have been blinded by stats when maybe you should have been looking at wins. BTW, RW is not a traditional drop back passer. Rating him on only that will give him a low score. Try rating him on his rushing ability, or his ability to create off of broken plays and now he is the best in the league. Quit trying to rate him on only one dimension-the dimension he does not excell at. Rate him on his overall game and his ability to lead a team to victory.

obibyn · Mar 27, 2015

skinsdad62 said:
first off the pistol isnt an offense its a formation

2nd the read option is a play not an offense

3rd the skins use the WCO offense

at this point in Rg3's career you have to run those plays to be successful. RG3 isnt ready to run the offense as designed or any pro style offense as designed because he lacks the trust to let the ball go

but the main thing is this whole "pocket passer thing " is driven by Rg3 and his camp . gruden was hired because of this camp

1st...So technical...yeah I get all that...thanks for correcting me...but how many times have we heard it being called just that? Read option offense....Pistol offense....thanks....but you missed also my point.

2nd...He doesn't have to have the pistol or option to have a offense catered to him.

3rd...This whole "Rg3 and his camp" theory is flawed as well...but who's being technical...

Theory "RG2/RG3's Fear of being Stereotyped" : Redskins

I heard this on another board, thought I share it here as well and talk about it.

This leads to the debate of how much the Redskins should allow Griffin to run. Griffin's dad, Robert Griffin II, says he won't tell >coach Mike Shanahan how to do his job. But the elder Griffin definitely has strong thoughts on the topic.

"You tell a kid that you want him to be there for fourteen years, guess what?" Griffin II says to GQ. "Historical data will tell you >that the more he runs, the more subject he is to career injury. You name one quarterback out there that would rather run the >football than throw the football and I’ll show you a loser." Robert Griffin III Talks To GQ About Handling His Dad's Advice And The Coach's Plans | ThePostGame

But were there any "on-the-record demands" of RG3 and his dad for an offense change or is that a myth.

Perhaps this quote from RG2 was out of fear of being stereotyped, since this was the main narrative in the media during that time he made the quote. The media was in attack mode regarding Read Option offense and Running QBs that play for the Redskins.

From what I heard, RG3/RG2 during 2013 after realizing that the pocket passer theme wasnt working well for Robert, they asked the coach to add more plays like the 2012. But that didnt work out well because of the knee brace limits.

Jay was brought into the team to make RG3 a pocket Passer. Even though RG3 perhaps want to return to the 2012 system.

Rumor has it, that Jay was never interested in running a Read Option Offense, and was only interested in a WCO, which is why Jay never been a big supporter of RG3 to begin with, but was forced to start him but now can bench him.

Also rumor is that the Redskins staff have also told RG3 not to run the ball, which supports the narrative that the Coaches of the offense, never been interested in running a read option. Because why would they need to tell him not to run the ball, if he was not interested in running in the first place.

This lead to RG3 staying in the pocket instead of scrambling out to extend throwing plays. The offense isnt being built for that when RG3 is playing. Could this be the reason behind why the teammates dont want RG3 to play, because the team has to play different as a whole when he is on the field?

Chris Russell an insider from ESPN 980 has said this year the idea that RG3 isn't willing to run is overrated -- alluding to the >idea that he's over the whole pure pocket passer drill -- if that's what the coach wants him to do. So insiders also share that RG3 wants to run the ball more, and inst against running the ball like many misinforming media and news sources continue to spread from the 2013 Robert Griffin 2 quote.

Clearly RG3 can see he is not doing well in a Pocket Passer system, and he is smart enough to know its best not to go that route right now and would want to go back to the 2012 system.

But Jay and Coaches are pressing him not to run the ball, which goes against that.

So perhaps Jay Gruden wasnt the right coach for RG3 after all.

But Jay is probably here to stay, so a good idea may be to send RG3 away, because I believe they arent a good fit for each other. I believe they are moving away from the "Jay to develop RG3 into a Pocket Passer" plan has taken a back seat now to everything else and no longer a primary goal.

redskinsfan · Mar 27, 2015

Uhsplit said:
Wow, just wow. That is one incredible reach. Stafford has the #2 D last year, and has greater weapons all around except at RB and still can't win jack.
Only Brees and Rodgers on that list have won anything.
You have been blinded by stats when maybe you should have been looking at wins. BTW, RW is not a traditional drop back passer. Rating him on only that will give him a low score. Try rating him on his rushing ability, or his ability to create off of broken plays and now he is the best in the league. Quit trying to rate him on only one dimension-the dimension he does not excell at. Rate him on his overall game and his ability to lead a team to victory.

Andrew Luck hasn't won a playoff game, much less a Superbowl. Yet, would you dare take issue with the fact that he's leaps and bounds better than Wilson? What seems to elude you is that wins too are stats. Wins, of course, are the most important measure of team performance, but they often are poor barometers of any particular individual effort. By conflating the two with Wilson, you employ some silly and simplistic syllogistic logic by arguing that Wilson was, in fact, the cause of those victories. While I'm not a big believer in stats as the sole source of illustrating a point, the stats I cited to convincingly point to the limited role Wilson had in Seattle's success. Apart from those I've previously referred to, here are a few more: Seattle was 27th in passing yards, 22nd (five way tie and just ahead of the 27th team) in passing TDs, and dead last in passes attempted last year. On the other hand, they also led the league in rushing yards, yards per attempt and were second in rush attempts. On defense, Seattle was number one overall in yards per game, pass yards per game, points per game and third in rushing yards. Does that sound to you like Wilson "won" games for Seattle?

And you're missing my overall point, which is the fact that Wilson is an average passing QB who, without the support staff he had now, would probably be struggling to keep his starting job.

You keep ducking my question. How would Wilson do if he played for the Colts? What would their record be? Farrar says he'd be around a .500 QB. I agree with him on that. And so do many others.

Uhsplit · Mar 27, 2015

redskinsfan said:
Andrew Luck hasn't won a playoff game, much less a Superbowl. Yet, would you dare take issue with the fact that he's leaps and bounds better than Wilson? What seems to elude you is that wins too are stats. Wins, of course, are the most important measure of team performance, but they often are poor barometers of any particular individual effort. By conflating the two with Wilson, you employ some silly and simplistic syllogistic logic by arguing that Wilson was, in fact, the cause of those victories. While I'm not a big believer in stats as the sole source of illustrating a point, the stats I cited to convincingly point to the limited role Wilson had in Seattle's success. Apart from those I've previously referred to, here are a few more: Seattle was 27th in passing yards, 22nd (five way tie and just ahead of the 27th team) in passing TDs, and dead last in passes attempted last year. On the other hand, they also led the league in rushing yards, yards per attempt and were second in rush attempts. On defense, Seattle was number one overall in yards per game, pass yards per game, points per game and third in rushing yards. Does that sound to you like Wilson "won" games for Seattle?

And you're missing my overall point, which is the fact that Wilson is an average passing QB who, without the support staff he had now, would probably be struggling to keep his starting job.

You keep ducking my question. How would Wilson do if he played for the Colts? What would their record be? Farrar says he'd be around a .500 QB. I agree with him on that. And so do many others.

Our O is built around the run. We do not have to throw as much as other teams. There is no need to. One of Pete's biggies is no turnovers and the more you pass the greater the chance of a TO-see ending of SB48. Pete would run the ball 50 times a game if he could get away with it. If Marino was the QB in that situation, you would think he is no good because of his low #'s.
Also, i have no idea how RW would do on Indy's team and neither does anyone else on this planet but I bet he would throw fewer INTs than Luck!
Good day and I must move on as this is a never ending debate.

redskinsfan · Mar 27, 2015

Uhsplit said:
Our O is built around the run. We do not have to throw as much as other teams. There is no need to. One of Pete's biggies is no turnovers and the more you pass the greater the chance of a TO-see ending of SB48. Pete would run the ball 50 times a game if he could get away with it. If Marino was the QB in that situation, you would think he is no good because of his low #'s.
Also, i have no idea how RW would do on Indy's team and neither does anyone else on this planet but I bet he would throw fewer INTs than Luck!
Good day and I must move on as this is a never ending debate.

I think your first sentence made my argument for me. The reason why your offense is built around the run is not only because Lynch is a beast but also because of Wilson's shortcomings as a passer. If Seattle's offense was a run-first offense, that would be one thing (eg the Cowboys 2014 offense). However, it's about as close to an old-school Sooner wishbone running game the NFL has ever seen. The fact that's it's a first-in-run and dead last-in-pass speaks volumes. This is particularly so in a pass-first league where teams are looking for ways to pass early and often. If you've got a QB that can pass, you mold the offense to exploit that skill set. The only reason why you'd scale down a passing attack is because you lack confidence in your passer. And that's exactly the case with Wilson.

I also believe we all know how Wilson would turn out in Indy. One good way to look at this is to realize that, unlike Wilson, Luck had zip to work with. Yet, because he could throw, they drummed up a gameplan to exploit those skills. If Wilson were in Luck's shoes, we'd be having a very, very different conversation about him. And if that support starts faltering, that conversation rear its head sooner rather than later. That's not to say Wilson can improve. But he's an average passing QB right now. And that's the whole point of this thread in addition to pointing out that the Redskins should piece together a supoort staff for RGIII to ease his transition to becoming a pocket passer.

Sleepy T · Mar 27, 2015

skinsdad62 said:
well i think they are wrong on russel wilson . he is much better then they are giving him credit for . to set up the final play in the superbowl wilson hit a pressure pass to an avg wr to give them a chance to win . his skill , his read , his accuracy .

Absolutely, And I will add to that sdad. He is a smart QB, one who doesnt typically make stupid mistakes, and who has a knack for making plays. He just has a feel for the game. He was a pain in the ass in the ACC for years. The guy has been a winner everywhere he has been. That stands for something.

Alot of people compare him to Steve Young...I think that is a fair comparison.

redskinsfan · Mar 27, 2015

VTSparks said:
Absolutely, And I will add to that sdad. He is a smart QB, one who doesnt typically make stupid mistakes, and who has a knack for making plays. He just has a feel for the game. He was a pain in the ass in the ACC for years. The guy has been a winner everywhere he has been. That stands for something.

Alot of people compare him to Steve Young...I think that is a fair comparison.

I would seriously disagree with that. Wilson needs an awful lot of help to get him where he's at. Young is totally different since he could pass the ball to win games for the Niners. There's no way Wilson could do that. And that last play was an example of how he still needs to learn the position. The right play there was to throw it somewhere else or throw it away.

If you want an appropriate comparison, that would be Alex Smith.

chillerdab · Mar 27, 2015

I think the comparison to Alex Smith is a poor one. I also don't think that RW is as good as the Seahawks fans think he is. On the other hand, right now he's better than the past 20 or so redskins qb's, so there's that.

I'd take Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Luck in a heartbeat before I took Wilson.

If I was implementing a run-first offense, I'd probably take Ryan, Stafford, Romo, and both Mannings before I'd take Russel Wilson.

That still puts him at borderline top ten in the league.

Not shabby at all for a fourth rounder!

j_y19 · Mar 28, 2015

redskinsfan said:
I would seriously disagree with that. Wilson needs an awful lot of help to get him where he's at. Young is totally different since he could pass the ball to win games for the Niners. There's no way Wilson could do that. And that last play was an example of how he still needs to learn the position. The right play there was to throw it somewhere else or throw it away.

If you want an appropriate comparison, that would be Alex Smith.

Wow, not sure why the hate on Wilson. They guy has done nothing but win. His OL sucks and he has no receivers to speak of. He is a smart, versatile player that doesn't make too many mistakes and knows the offense and his role. Wish we had someone like that......

chillerdab · Mar 28, 2015

j_y19 said:
Wow, not sure why the hate on Wilson. They guy has done nothing but win. His OL sucks and he has no receivers to speak of. He is a smart, versatile player that doesn't make too many mistakes and knows the offense and his role. Wish we had someone like that......

redskinsfan · Mar 29, 2015

chillerdab said:

There is no hate I have for Wilson. The whole point of this thread is to show that if Seattle can win with a very pedestrian passing QB like Wilson because of the support he gets, we can do the same with RGIII. And please don't say Wilson is a winner. He plays QB for a winning team; his team doesn't win because of him. Listen to what Farrar says about him and the hypothetical he poses about how Wilson would do on the Colts, if you don't believe he'd be any better than .500 and struggling to keep his stsrting job, you're kidding yourself.

Farrar's comments can be accessed via podcast from Chad Dukes' Monday, March 23, 2015 show.

redskinsfan · Mar 29, 2015

chillerdab said:

There is no hate I have for Wilson. The whole point of this thread is to show that if Seattle can win with a very pedestrian passing QB like Wilson because of the support he gets, we can do the same with RGIII. And please don't say Wilson is a winner. He plays QB for a winning team; his team doesn't win because of him. Listen to what Farrar says about him and the hypothetical he poses about how Wilson would do on the Colts, if you don't believe he'd be any better than .500 and struggling to keep his stsrting job, you're kidding yourself.

Farrar's comments can be accessed via podcast from Chad Dukes' Monday, March 23, 2015 show.

skinsdad62 · Mar 30, 2015

redskinsfan said:
There is no hate I have for Wilson. The whole point of this thread is to show that if Seattle can win with a very pedestrian passing QB like Wilson because of the support he gets, we can do the same with RGIII. And please don't say Wilson is a winner. He plays QB for a winning team; his team doesn't win because of him. Listen to what Farrar says about him and the hypothetical he poses about how Wilson would do on the Colts, if you don't believe he'd be any better than .500 and struggling to keep his stsrting job, you're kidding yourself.

Farrar's comments can be accessed via podcast from Chad Dukes' Monday, March 23, 2015 show.

russell wilson is a career 63.4 % passer he has 72 tds and 26 ints and his rating is 98.6 and he has a shade under 10,000 yds . pedestrian my ass

Doug Farrar: Russell Wilson No Better Than .500 QB On Indy & What This Means For RGIII

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